neverendingjourney,
Well done.
Regarding the WTS's perceived "secondary fulfillment" of Neb's dream of the tree. They acknowledge that the dream had its fulfillment on Nebuchadnezzar. I wonder if they say that the dream had a secondary fulfillment, or if they say that what happened to Neb was in itself the prophecy.
If the latter, they have difficulty in proving that Neb's experience took place during seven 360-day "prophetic" years.
Are there any WTS quotes that show whether the dream had a second fulfillment or if Neb's experience was the prophecy?
Doug
Doug Mason
JoinedPosts by Doug Mason
-
33
Logic and the fallacy of 1914
by neverendingjourney inlogic dictates that to prove a conclusion you must break it down into its individual parts and prove each individual element.. for instance, i can prove that 2+2=4.
i can also prove that 4 - 1 = 3 and that 3+10= 13. therefore, i can definitely prove my conclusion that that 2+2-1+10=13.. however, i would be unable to prove that 2+z-1+10=13.
because one of the elements, z-1, is unverifiable.
-
-
Doug Mason
-
17
Generation problem is a self-inflicted wound
by Doug Mason inthere is no need to go to any university of higher education to solve the wtss problem with generation of matthew 24:34. it only needs a primary school certificate in plain reading.
in each of the nine times that the word generation appears in matthew, jesus is talking about the jewish people of his time.
read: matt 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; and 24:34. .
-
-
Doug Mason
There is no need to go to any university of higher education to solve the WTS’s problem with “generation” of Matthew 24:34. It only needs a Primary School “Certificate in Plain Reading”.
In each of the nine times that the word “generation” appears in Matthew, Jesus is talking about the Jewish people of his time. Read: Matt 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; and 24:34.
At the start of his Olivet Discourse (Matthew chapters 24 and 25), Jesus warns his disciples to beware of deceivers who would point to wars, earthquakes and such as a sign of his coming (parousia in Matthew) and of the destruction of the temple. So he was telling them not to take any notice of wars and such. Never did he mention size or extent of wars, number of casualties, and so on. He simply said to watch out for deceivers coming as “the Christ (Anointed)” who would point to such events.
The people at the time were looking for a Messiah who would release them from the tyranny of Roman oppression and from the hypocrisy of their religious leaders. Jesus promised that the temple would be destroyed within their generation, and that is why the disciples called its destruction the “end of the age”.
The WTS’s problem stems from its reliance on a false chronology which it confirms with a false “sign”, using a false reading of Jesus’ message, which was intended for the people of his own time.
The WTS then kangaroo-hops around unrelated passages of Scripture to create an imaginary upper class of elect “Anointed” and probably will kangaroo-hop this to the “generation”.
The WTS’s problem with “generation” is a self-inflicted wound.
Doug -
50
Gentile Times reconsidered
by confused and lost ini am half way through this book by carl o. jonsson and the more i read the more certain i become that the 607bce date for the destruction of jerusalem by babylon is nothing more than a fabrication designed to uphold 1914 and hence the "authority" of the watchtower leadership.it makes me sick to think of how they have duped millions of people with their phoney chronology.it makes sitting through studies that mention these dates irritating to say the least.especially when all the heads nod in unison at the mention of the "magic 607"
-
-
Doug Mason
G’day JC,
Contrary to your assertion, I believe that it is fundamental to the WTS (and hence Scholar) that “desolation” be understood in terms of “depopulation” and “total destruction”. How else do they get from their imaginary date of 537 to their equally imaginary date of 607?
Your views are irrelevant. In fact, you appear not to realize that JWs have had a gutful of eschatological, apocalyptic, date-setters, and that you are only offering more of the same. Unless, of course you are a joker who is parodying those guys in Brooklyn.
It’s a pity you try to drag COJ into this. I realized before he did that the servitude by the nations to Babylon was approximately 70 years. As I said, I am not going to provide bits and pieces, since it develops into a wasteful tennis match. I will put my thoughts down in a comprehensive Study.
Oh, and you have managed the “resurrecting-from-the-dead” bit, have you, with good old Danny from the Hebrew Scriptures? What a hoot he must be!
Let me guess. You went to Babylon, identified his remains, performed your jiggery-pokery mumb-jumbo, and hey presto, here he is, good old Danny.
Is he still living in Babylon? Would be most interesting to see his passport. Maybe you could give us a scan of it. With your vast knowledge of the dating systems, you would be able to give him an interesting date of birth. Or do you work from his rebirth date? How old was he when you brought him back from the dead? Probably about 100. Or did he start off again as a baby? No need for doctors for him, hey!
What a distinct advantage that gives you, with someone who can read ancient languages. How long will it take to get him to speak English with an American accent? When he can converse in English, and he makes the transition from clay tablet to computer keyboard, you should get him to post for our edification here at JWD.
Will you be converting him from Judaism to your form of Christianity? You have no understanding of Jesus’ death and resurrection, or of the NT gospel, so it should not be too difficult for you. You are, after all, a person of the OT, anyway.
You could get him a job in the local Lion Park. What an attraction. Disney would kill for him.
And he could correct your ridiculous dates and your misunderstanding about the “Seventy Years”. But that might be too much to ask for, since I think you don’t want to understand.
Wow! Please keep us informed of the next person you raise from the dead, JC.
Doug -
50
Gentile Times reconsidered
by confused and lost ini am half way through this book by carl o. jonsson and the more i read the more certain i become that the 607bce date for the destruction of jerusalem by babylon is nothing more than a fabrication designed to uphold 1914 and hence the "authority" of the watchtower leadership.it makes me sick to think of how they have duped millions of people with their phoney chronology.it makes sitting through studies that mention these dates irritating to say the least.especially when all the heads nod in unison at the mention of the "magic 607"
-
-
Doug Mason
The “GB of the WTS”, “JCanon”, and “JW Scholar” share the same mistake regarding the “70 Years”.
Not one of them understands what the Hebrews at that time understood by “desolation”.
There is no point saying what the word means to us today, any more than guess what the expression might mean in another 2500 years time.
Since I believe there would be no value in providing parts of the facts, which would only result
in a “tennis match”, I will sit down and prepare a formal Study.
This will take me just a little while, and it will be a worthwhile exercise.
Doug -
24
2008 Jan 1st Watchtower PUBLIC EDITION searchable PDF
by AlphaOmega inagain, as before, many many thanks to fokyc for the scans; i've pdf'd them and made them searchable.. there is mention of 1914 in this edition and mention of 144,000. .
i'll make no more comments until you've had a chance to read it.. we thought it might be interesting to compare the new formats (study vs public).
http://www.sendspace.com/file/mb3ggx.
-
-
Doug Mason
fukitol,
Jesus specifically warned his disciples not to be fooled by the mere occurence of wars, famines, etc.
Thank you. I thought I was the only one here who realized that Jesus was warning his disciples against deceivers who would be pointing to events such as wars, famines and so on as a sign of the "Parousia".
People also need to read what the word "parousia" meant to those guys at that time. It was a grand visit of a noted dignitary to a town or district. It certainly was not invisible (like the "King's New Clothes"). It was a grand celebration, where people made many preparations, even minting commemoratory coins, building new roads, and so on. "Invisible"? Give me a break.
Jesus warned against not making the necessary (spiritual) preparations for the forthcoming "Parousia", as happened in Noah's time. And that Parousia was not invisble.
Doug
-
50
Gentile Times reconsidered
by confused and lost ini am half way through this book by carl o. jonsson and the more i read the more certain i become that the 607bce date for the destruction of jerusalem by babylon is nothing more than a fabrication designed to uphold 1914 and hence the "authority" of the watchtower leadership.it makes me sick to think of how they have duped millions of people with their phoney chronology.it makes sitting through studies that mention these dates irritating to say the least.especially when all the heads nod in unison at the mention of the "magic 607"
-
-
Doug Mason
If you want to see some of the background behind Carl Jonsson's book, he has made available the correspondence between himself and the WTS during 1977-1980, while he was still a JW.
Go to the following page and follow the link.
http://user.tninet.se/~oof408u/fkf/english/epage.htmDoug
-
10
"The FDS and its GB" - REVISION 2
by Doug Mason ini have just released version 2 of my study, the faithful and discreet slave and its governing body.
it is available at:.
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=7a0e4eafda05807501122222b5733db2i would appreciate information on any corrections omissions.doug
-
-
Doug Mason
buffalosrfree (and others),
I would not know why you are having difficulties with that site. So I have put the Study on my own web site, and you should be able to download it at:
http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/FDS_and_its_GB.pdf
If you still have difficulties, you can write to me and I will email a copy to you. Also, Randy Watters says he has put it on his "Freeminds" site.
Doug
-
29
Do Witnesses Care About Chronology Anymore?
by minimus inlet's say christ threw the devil out in 1914, so what?
does 1914 have any real signifance to a jehovah's witness anymore?
all i can see is that "this proves we're living in the last days of the last days".
-
-
Doug Mason
Even if the mathematics and the history are too difficult, the issue to me is that the WTS deliberately and consistently misrepresents, misquotes, and uses selective partial citations to prop up its false foundation.
The issue as always is "trust", and if an organization stoops to low and unChristian behavior to blind its followers, there is no reason that any should have any trust in them.
Doug -
10
"The FDS and its GB" - REVISION 2
by Doug Mason ini have just released version 2 of my study, the faithful and discreet slave and its governing body.
it is available at:.
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=7a0e4eafda05807501122222b5733db2i would appreciate information on any corrections omissions.doug
-
-
Doug Mason
Hi all!
I would like to thank you for your kind words.
The fact is, of course, that I must thank all of you Posters at JWD for providing the inspiration, information, and resources, without whom I could never done this.
Also, I must thank the people who provide this Forum, so that we can share our thoughts, concerns and experiences.
So, well done to you all.
Doug.
PS. Regarding the FDS parable being given at two different times, locations and situations. In the back of my mind, and something I deliberately avoided, is the thought that we do not really know when Jesus delivered that parable. The accounts of Matthew, Mark and Luke are not intended to be chronological records, and are constructed in a manner that suited the liturgical needs of that group at that time.
Hence we find Matthew grouping similar thoughts that might not have been delivered at the one time. For example, the grouping of the "Kingdom" parables at Chapter 13, and the "On the watch" parables of Chapters 24 and 25. It is possible we could include the "Sermon on the Mount" as a structured compilation designed to parallel the giving of the Law by Moses from a mount.
I thought these ideas could have provided an unwelcome distraction, and would have added nothing to the thrust of the Study.
Hopefully, the GB has received their copy of "our" Study.
Doug -
129
587/607 Question...
by deaconbluez inif the exile wasn't to be 70 years, how is jeremiah 29:10 explained by pro-587 folks?.
10 "for this is what jehovah has said, in accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at babylon i shall turn my attention to you people, and i will establish toward you my good word in bringing you back to this place.. .
also, if it truly was a 70-year period of servitude, and not exile, when was this 70 years served by other nations?.
-
-
Doug Mason
Hi Scholar,
You do a great service by enabling us to answer questions that might be running around in a JW’s mind. Thank you for that.
I suggest that you would be better served if you did not “play the man” so much (using derogatory language, or passing judgment about me, Carl, Furuli, or the “Celebrated FDS scholars”) and focused on “playing the ball” (the issues at hand).
In so doing, I find it odd that you would denigrate “higher critics” and then use higher criticism throughout your Post. (Maybe you don’t know what the expression means?) I presume, from your description of Furuli, that he is of “Lower Criticism”.
Doug
---------------------------
Scholar: “I know you have a personal interpretation of the seventy years.”
Doug: I am pleased you recognize that I have my own convictions, that I am not beholden to others. Yes, I make my own decisions, and I expect others to make their own decisions, too.
---------------------------
Scholar: “The seventy years of Jeremiah was a full or definite historic period of Exile-Servitude-Desolation prescribed as punishment for Judah.”
Doug: The “Seventy years” are mentioned twice by Jeremiah: at 25:11 – 12 and 29:10.At Jeremiah 25:11 – 12, Judah is mentioned separately from the decree: “This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, These nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon.”
Notice that it is the “nations” listed at verses 18 – 28 and “Babylon” who are the parties to the Seventy-year decree.
Note also that Jeremiah says the end of the “Seventy years” would be marked by the punishment of Babylon. Never does Jeremiah say that the end of the period would be marked by a religious festival in Jerusalem. What relevance would a religious ceremony in Jerusalem have to these other nations?At Jeremiah 29:10, the people are told to settle down and they were to stop listening to false prophets who were promising a prompt release. The Seventy years were already in place, would continue, and see its fulfillment. The people were thus to settle.
(NIV) “This is what the LORD says: “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place.”
Notice that the LORD says when the period has ended, he will bring them back. Notice that he does NOT say that when he brings them back, then the period has ended---------------------------
Scholar: “You 'muddy' the waters by your two-streams model which yokes the seventy years of Jeremiah to events during the reign of Manasseh, king of Judah.”
Doug: I do NOT yoke the Seventy years to the events in Manassah’s time. If you are going to describe what I believe, then do not misrepresent my position. This habit of misrepresenting and misquoting is a feature of your “esteemed, brilliant, celebrated, dishonest ‘Scholars’”. They used misquotations with chronology in their “Aid” book and with blood in their “Questions” booklet. If you report my position, do not resort to their libelous tactics.
---------------------------
Scholar: “Jeremiah with the remaining last kings of Judah were contemporaneous with Babylon not Assyria so your historical connection is too far stretched.”
Doug: Another red herring. Assyria does not feature in these events. As you full well know, the key nations are Babylon, Egypt and Judah.
---------------------------
Scholar: “Your fuzzy beginning of the seventy years mirrors the somewhat vague beginning advance by Jonsson in his hypothesis who simply cannot be precise about a date for the beginning or an event for the beginning.
Doug: Carl Jonsson can answer for himself. My position is clear: when Babylon defeated Egypt, the nations that were aligned with Egypt, including Judah, began their Seventy years (father, son, grandson) of servitude to Babylon. It ended when Babylon suffered its defeat in 539 BCE.
---------------------------
Scholar: “Celebrated WT scholars have never been confused about the period as to its substance, theology and chronology.”
Doug: They are not confused, just wrong, often deceptive. And for a very very long time they held that Jerusalem fell in 606 BCE.
The WT is but a legal entity. The scholarly responsibility lies with the FDS, of which the GB is a part. But which FDS or GB scholar writes about these matters? Not one. They are clueless.
---------------------------
Scholar: “Your bogus 'second stream' also has many difficulties.
Doug: It has no difficulties.
Simply put, I am saying that following the destruction of Israel, the LORD had warned an evil, depraved, disobedient Judah that he had had enough of their idolatrous and vile practices, which included child sacrifices. With king after king, from Manassah and finally to Zedekiah, God pleaded with them to change their ways. The rule of Josiah only brought a delay of the LORD’s judgement.When Babylon defeated Egypt, Jeremiah prophesied that Babylon would remain supreme over all of the listed nations for Seventy years. Of all these nations, only Judah rebelled against the decreed servitude. They could have remained in their land and served out the Seventy years.
Just before the final onslaught against Zedekiah, the prophet Jeremiah pleaded with the king to go out and accept the decreed servitude to Babylon. The LORD had made that decree of Seventy years’ servitude, and it would run its course, and Zedekiah would have prevented the destruction of Jerusalem simply by accepting that decree. But these people were so evil, so set in their ways, that they could not bring themselves to listen to the LORD.Even after Jerusalem fell, the LORD wanted people to remain on the land and not go into Egypt. But they were so set in their rebelliousness, that they still continued to disobey. The LORD did not destroy his “Kingdom”, he destroyed an evil and depraved nation.
---------------------------
Scholar: “Daniel in 9:2 writing after the Fall of Babylon states that the seventy years had not then been fulfilled.”
Doug: Daniel only says that after Babylon fell that he “understood” the Seventy years. Because of this, he was moved to offer his heartfelt prayer.There is no evidence whether it had been completed or not. There is certainly no indication that the Seventy years ended at the moment that the Jews celebrated their return in Jerusalem.
Daniel 9:2 uses the word “chorbah” to describe the “desolation” of Jerusalem. This is the only place Daniel uses that word. As the context shows, the word comes from Jeremiah, no doubt from the letter he wrote to the captives in Babylon. This Seventy years of Chorbah describes a far lesser degree of desolation than does the Hebrew word Shamem. Neihter Chorbah nor Shamem required a depopulation of the land, which never occurred anyway.
---------------------------
Scholar: “Exile produces servitude which in turn exile leaves a vacant land, depopulated hence desolate.”
Doug: Desolation does not require depopulation. Servitude does not require exile. The several nations were given the same judgement, yet none had to leave their homeland depopulated. Those nations accepted the verdict, Judah did not. These nations had captives in Babylon, just as Judah did.
---------------------------
Scholar: “Our critics hone in on one verse which mentions serving the King of Babylon in Jeremiah 25:11 but they ignore the fact that Jeremiah in 19:10 writes to the exiles in Babylon during the seventy year period. So these two verses proves that the seventy years at this point amounted to exile and servitude.”
Doug: Jeremiah 25:9 and 11 speak about both “this land” and “the surrounding nations” as well.
Verse 9 (NIV): “… against this land and its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations. I will completely destroy them and make them an object of horror and scorn, and an everlasting ruin.”
Verse 11 (NIV): This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”
Jeremiah 29:10 (which is what I assume you meant to write) was written following the exile of Jehoiachin. As you correctly point out, this was written “to the exiles in Babylon during the seventy year period”. This shows that the Seventy-years was already in operation at that time, well before its unnecessary destruction about 10 years later. Yes, there was exile and servitude at that point, and by all the nations. And that is all that was required for the servitude to continue.
---------------------------
Scholar: “Also, Jer. 25:11 refers to desolation of the land in connection with the seventy years so we have model of exile-servitude-desolation.”
Doug: I do not disagree with that as a “model”. The people who were not exiled were still able to live in the desolated land. Please understand the shades of “desolation” that are described by the different Hebrew words.
---------------------------
Scholar: “The nations along with Judah would also receive judgement similar to Judah but their respective dues are not prescribed chronologically as was the case with Judah.”
Doug: As we have seen above, this statement is totally incorrect. Jeremiah 25: 11 says: [Judah] will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. It DOES NOT say “and Judah will serve the king of Babylon seventy years”.
---------------------------
Scholar: “Rolf Furuli has published his second volume on Babylonian Chronology. … The books are available from the publisher.
Doug: Scholar, when you are relying on the Aged Pension as your sole source of income, the last thing you think about is spending money frivolously.
---------------------------
Scholar: “As proven by its reference to by Daniel, Ezra, Zechariah and Josephus. These writers made sufficient comment on Jeremiah's prophecy of the seventy years as to its explanation and timing.
Doug: For example, let’s see what Josephus does say:
“Nabuchodonosor, after he had begun to build the forementioned wall, fell sick, and departed this life, when he had reigned forty-three years; whereupon his son Evilmerodach obtained the kingdom. He governed public affairs after an illegal and impure manner, and had a plot laid against him by Neriglissor, his sister’s husband, and was slain by him when he had reigned but two years. After he was slain, Neriglissoor, the person who plotted against him, succeeded him in the kingdom, and reigned four years; his son Laborosoarchod obtained the kingdom, though he was but a child, and kept it nine months; but by reason of the very ill-temper and ill practices he exhibited to the world, a plot was laid against him also by his friends, and he was tormented to death. After his death, the conspirators got together, and by common consent put the crown upon the head of Nabonnedus a man of Babylon, and one who belonged to that insurrection. In his reign it was that the walls of the city of Babylon were curiously built with burnt brick and bitumen; but when he was come to the seventeenth year of his reign, Cyrus came out of Persia with a great army; and having already conquered all the rest of Asia, he came hastily to Babylonia.. When Nabonnedus perceived he was coming to attack him, he met him with his forces, and joining battle with him, was beaten; and tied away with a few of his troops with him, and was shut up within the city Borsippus. Hereupon Cyrus took Babylon, and gave order that the outer walls of the city should be demolished, because the city had proved very troublesome to him, and cost him a great deal of pains to take it. He then marched away to Borsippus, to besiege Nabonnedus; but as Nabonnedus did not sustain the siege, but delivered himself into his hands, he was at first kindly used by Cyrus, who gave him Carmania, as a place for him to inhabit in, but sent him out of Babylonia.. Accordingly Nabonnedus spent the rest of his time in that country, and there died.
“These accounts agree with true history in our books; for in them it is written that Nabuchadnezzar in the nineteenth year of his reign laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity for fifty years.” (Josephus: Against Apion, Book 1:20-21)